A Sitdown With Matthew Perryman - Part 1
February 4, 2010
INTRODUCTION
Matthew Perryman is a very popular (or infamous depending on who you ask) strength enthusiast/professional/journalist in many fitness circles on the net. Whether you love or hate the guy, you can’t deny his deep level of understanding when it comes to logical thinking and the sciences pertaining to strength and muscle development. What’s most impressive is his ability to regurgitate very heavy information into easily understood and applicable terms that resonate well with his audience.
If you haven’t heard of him, you might start with a gander of his site: www.ampedtraining.com.
I’ve personally turned to Matt on numerous occasions when I wanted verification or deeper understanding of various topics pertaining to strength training. I’m not ashamed to admit that he knows loads more than I do and I’m very grateful he’s willing to lend his brain to those who are willing to listen objectively.
I was very happy when he agreed to sit down with Body-Improvements to “talk shop.” Without further ado, sit back, grab some chocolate milk, and hear what Matt has to say about a broad range of topics including reactive training, motivation, integrity in the fitness industry and much more.
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STEVE: A large fraction of our readers aren’t in tune with the typical bodybuilding/strength minded communities you typically frequent. Their exposure to you comes by way of links I’ve provided them to articles you’ve written. Can you shed some light on who you are and what it is that you do both on and off “the field of fitness?”
MATT: I always find that it's hard to answer this question because, unlike most folks in this field, I'm too scatterbrained to have any clear mission; so I can't just say "I'm a personal trainer with X degrees and Y qualifications".
If I had to briefly sum up my involvement in the 'fitness field', that's easy enough. I know I've told this story plenty of times, but I'm a small guy, and when I started lifting I was even smaller. I got sick of it, started hitting the weights, and me being how I am, I became obsessed with finding ways to improve my own results.
That was 12 years ago this year. Looking back over that time, I've read just about everything there is to read on the subject, from books to research journals. I've gone through a lot of crazy ideas and labcoated theories; some of them panned out, some of them didn't. I've learned how to really think about the subject of strength training, instead of just repeating what everybody keeps saying about it.
I won't call myself a coach, because calling yourself a coach when you aren't is lame. I'm not a personal trainer at the moment, unless you count myself and my wife, so I won't call myself that either.
At the same time, I'm not putting myself out there as all show and no go, either. I think that's even worse; even a crappy personal trainer is at least actually training people.
When I'm not too hurt to bother, I like to compete in powerlifting and maybe the occasional strongman contest. In the past I have coached people into both physique events, like bodybuilding and women's figure, and into strength contests. My own results won't exactly inspire wonder in the masses, but I've hauled some iron around in my time and I like to think I'm continuing to do the best I can with what I've got to work with (which is unfortunately a small and injury-prone body).
So in that regard, I guess you could call me a kind of journalist. Maybe a watch-dog of some kind. I like to share with others what I've learned, so that maybe they won't spin their wheels like I did. I like to call BS, loudly, on people that are deceiving the public and saying the wrong things - mainly for the same reason.
STEVE: Thanks for the background, Coach.
Just kidding!
There are quite a few directions I’d like to take this interview. You’ve always been a “person of interest” in the fitness field from my perspective. There are a variety of reasons for that, which I’m sure we’ll delve into. If I’m being honest, I don’t have a list of preplanned questions to ask. You’re intriguing to the point I’m able to “shoot from the hip” as far as our dialogue goes.
I suppose we’ll start with something out of my own curiosity…
I’ve read and/or communicated with many people in the field and you’re right up there with one of the brightest. You’re objective and critical in your research and presentation of information. You have loads of integrity. And most of all, you’re able to clearly relay the “important stuff” to the end-users (readers, clients, etc.) without muddying the waters like so many professionals love to do.
Why is it that you aren’t more involved in the fitness field? I know you’ve recently written a book, which we’ll discuss soon, but you’d think someone of your caliber would be doing something full-time in the field.
Also, what are the plans going forward? I know I’ve seen you mention the possibility of opening up a facility of your own. Is that still a goal?
MATT: Why am I not more involved...good question.
I can think up a few reasons. Whether those reasons are good or not, I don't know.
With regards to real-world stuff, that answer is simple - it's hard as hell to make your living as a personal trainer. It's long, hard hours, it's lots of selling, and clients can be a damn pain in the ass. It may sound easy, but you really have to be on top of your game and have a high threshold for bullshit if you want to make a living. People always seem to gloss over that when looking at the field.
And I can be honest: I hate selling. I hate it more than just about anything. But it's what you've gotta do to stay in business. So from that angle, I've mostly just stayed away from it as a full-time job. I don't mind taking on clients that come to me and ask for help, but that's not enough to live on.
As far as my online presence, it comes back to the same thing. I hate going through the acts of self-promotion. And I realize that hurts me, and that I could be making a decent income if I were to go full-bore...but between hating the idea and being uninterested in it, I just can't see myself going that route. It's tempting at times, but I don't think it's for me.
Opening a facility has been one of those things I've always said I'm gonna do, and I'm always of two minds about it. One part of me just imagines how awesome it would be - no idiots hogging equipment, no dealing with jerks that won't put their plates back, and being able to work with people that actually want to be there and want to succeed. But then the pragmatic side kicks in - I start kicking around the costs, I realize the massive amount of leg-work I'd have to do in order to stay afloat... and I won't say I scare myself off, but it definitely makes me think twice about it.
Given the investment of time and money that you're talking about to open even a modestly-sized place, it's not something I take lightly. I haven't tabled the idea, mind you, and in fact I'm exploring some very conservative cost-effective options right now, but I'm still very much on the fence. I've about come to the conclusion that I'd need an interested business partner, preferably somebody with prior experience running a business, or at least a good talker that doesn't mind handling the bulk of the marketing and selling stuff. Otherwise I don't see it happening.
STEVE: Opening a facility can certainly be a risk – especially if you’re going into it without an existing client base and aren’t too high on self-promotion and marketing. The Body-Improvements facility was a thing of luck, really. My partner had a full book of business from a local gym that transitioned over to our place. Plus we lease our space from an indoor baseball facility that was actually looking for strength coaches to pair with their skill development. Without these factors, I’m doubtful the facility would’ve been possible… so I do understand.
Your answer segues into a number of issues I’d love to have you address. Before doing so, though, I’d like to provide some context for our readers who may not know you well. Your posture in the online fitness industry is one of defense, for lack of a better term. What I mean is given your experience and knowledge coupled with your critical, research-based perspective; you’re able to cut through much of the deceit that plagues the industry – and that you do… fantastically I might add.
The playing field has evolved into a game of seeing how many ways you can repackage the same information while separating the masses from as much of their money as possible – you might call it shilling. I consider you one of the select few who oppose this tide very publicly.
My questions are:
- What fuels your desire to expose the devious behavior?
- Do you ever feel it’s a process of futility? The shills are marketing machines and the public, by and large, craves information that is packaged in the way shills like to package information.
- What insight can you provide our readers with regards to becoming an educated consumer? There’s so much information being tossed out – how are they to decipher what’s worth paying attention to and what isn’t?
MATT: Steve I have to say I was glad to hear you guys opened a place. You've got a good head on you and I know you'll do well. Plus the field needs more people out there giving it a good name.
And it also pointed out something else to me - sometimes you have to quit being scared and just make the jump. Otherwise you can spend a lot of time sitting around and just thinking about it, never acting.
You point out, rightly, that there are a lot of hucksters out there. It's at the point now that the average person literally cannot separate the good from the bad; the whole idea of having professionals and experts is to give the layman a place to go for specialized knowledge. What happens when anyone with Internet access can open a blog and start selling ebooks?
Frankly this would never be allowed to happen in any other professional field. Can you imagine getting legal advice from a guy that read a few articles on Google? Would you let someone that had just taken first-year anatomy perform surgery on you? I have no doubts that, marketed properly, anyone offering those services could make a decent income. That doesn't mean that anyone would tolerate it; and we can expect exactly what the final outcome of both those scenarios would be.
Now look at the fitness industry. Personal trainers want so badly to be considered professionals and experts. But the reality is that the vast majority simply aren't. Look at what a doctor has to go through - upwards of 8-10 years of schooling, internships, and residency. He has to be licensed by a medical board to practice, and he can be held accountable by that board if he screws up - up to and including losing his right to practice. Lawyers have a similar process, with very intensive schooling, followed by admission to the bar, and they're likewise held to similar professional standards.
What does a personal trainer do? In the US, they go to a two-day course, pay $50, and they're a professional. If you're lucky, they actually had to show up for a class; some will let you sit the written-only exam, and others can be done via the Internet or through correspondence.
I'm not going to pretend that a personal trainer needs the kind of comprehensive education and professional rigor as a doctor or a lawyer, but the human body is a complex thing, and there is a lot of material to cover. That's not the kind of material you can cover even in a half-year course; how the hell are you learning this in a weekend? Ideally, you'd start to see bachelor's degrees becoming the minimum requirement; though I'm not opposed to having some test-out options or equivalency for experience, because let's face it, the majority of kinesiology and exercise science programs don't cut it either. A lot of those programs have a heavy emphasis on physiotherapy - rehabbing athletes instead of developing them - or they're still stuck in the 80s and pushing aerobics.
There is a massive collective failing on the part of the industry, and on the part of most academic programs for that matter, when it comes to this arena. If the industry wants to start being looked at and respected like professionals, they need to get their act together. Letting fitness models go out there and keep spreading their 1980s bodybuilding wisdom, or letting guys with no practical experience get out there and start putting people on bosu balls, without consequences, just isn't cutting it. If you want people to respect you, you have to stop acting like the stereotype of the idiot meathead or the little skinny guy that has his clients squat high.
But we have to take professional regulation with a grain of salt, too. From living in Australia and New Zealand, I can tell you that professional regulation is no panacea if the people doing the regulating are still in the meathead or skinny-guy camp. When you see industry-approved classes still teaching shit like "deadlifts are for hamstrings", it's no wonder that they keep turning out sub-standard trainers. Any way you shake it, the 'Bro' is strong in fitness.
So I'll let that rant serve as my answer to your first question. I do tend to take it personally because, for one, I've been the guy that was getting bilked, back in the day before I knew better. The second and perhaps bigger reason is that I've put in the time - in the gym, and reading like a madman - to learn this material backwards and forwards. I've spent time thinking outside the orthodoxy and trying to debunk the myths and solve the mysteries. I don't think it's too much to ask to have other people - people that claim they want to be professionals - devote themselves to the same degree.
It's extremely irritating to see these same people spreading mythology, or having the audacity to get upset because you point out their mistakes.
As far as futility, I feel that way all the time; I've had to accept it as how things are. I'm not going to trigger a revolution, because the things I say run counter to human nature. Like it or not, the default state of our species is not rationality, or analytical decision-making. Humans are emotional creatures and our actions are largely driven by unconscious, automatic responses. The marketing process works because it taps into those basic responses.
What I'm doing, and others like Alan Aragon, and Lyle McDonald, and all the rest of us that are forming this counter-movement, is the equivalent of trying to stop a hurricane by yelling at it. There's not nearly enough force behind it to make a difference, and ultimately you've only added to the wind.
That's alright, though. It makes me feel better (really; being able to say what you want about whomever you want is also a way of exploiting automatic human responses, and it's a tactic I've refined to get the responses I want), and from time to time people actually do get sick of being part of the flock; when that happens, we're there to help the process along. That's all I can ask for, and I'm okay with that.
As to becoming an educated consumer, that's a tough answer. That would usually be avoided by going to a professional, but that's been ruled out because the industry is in such a crappy state. And that leaves your average consumer in a hell of a bind.
The thing about evaluating information is that if you aren't already educated in the field, you literally don't have the tools available to make those choices. I don't have the education to second-guess a doctor or a lawyer; I have to trust that they've been educated, licensed, and otherwise vetted to do the job; and because those fields are so important, there's a structure in place to ensure that, created by those same professionals.
So this is tricky. This is the main reason I wrote the first chapter of Maximum Muscle as I did. I've been criticized for that, but how can you know what I'm saying is true if you don't know my thought process? How can you agree with my arguments if, to you, what another coach says, or what a bodybuilder with ripped abs says, carries the same weight? There has to be some standard, some way of evaluating information objectively.
The first step is to realize that. This field is based on science, and there really are objective, correct answers to most questions. Where people get tripped up is the expectation of concrete answers for every scenario; and that's frankly impossible. There's so much variability between individuals and between goals that it literally becomes an art. So there's this subjective component to go along with the objective, hard data.
To illustrate - to train for muscle growth, you have to overload the muscle(s) in question. By overload, I mean you have to create a specific kind of workload with external resistance, and that workload has to exceed what the muscle(s) can handle. I say this based on a working knowledge of muscular physiology and biochemistry, and fundamentally that won't vary. Ever. Anyone that wants to grow will have to create overload with external resistance, end of story.
But there are a lot, a whole lot of ways to create that overload. The physiology never changes from person to person; but the effect, and the external methods that create the effect, can vary across a very wide spectrum. What people see as a disagreement between different implementations - your different bodybuilding or strength or athletic programs - is in reality just a disagreement between opinion on the subjective matter: how to create that overload.
So that's the second step, to keep the objective objective, and to realize where things start to get fuzzier. Physiology won't change; individual approaches certainly will.
Otherwise, the best advice I can give is to be a hard-nosed skeptic. Develop your bullshit detector. Don't believe just anything you read unless the person making the claims can back them up. Yes this is hard to do if you don't have some education in research methods and statistics, and preferably a healthy knowledge of the material itself; but it doesn't ever hurt to ask. Try to shoot holes in the argument and see if it can stand on its own.
I personally tend to be skeptical of anybody touting a revolution or a brand new way of doing things. I'm doubly skeptical when people start claiming things that I know are impossible, like adding 27 lbs of muscle to a trained person in just 7 weeks. But you also have to realize that there's a context for everything, and some questionable statements may be harmless once you investigate them.
STEVE: That’s a great response, Matt.
If there’s a theme our readers take from it I hope it’s the fact that the fitness industry is beat up on a number of levels. Though it’s logical to assume that personal trainers and strength coaches are held to similar, rigorous standards as other health professionals (doctors, physiotherapists, etc), it’s simply dead wrong. I’m not sure such standards are necessary, as you noted, but a movement in that direction would make a world of beneficial difference if you ask me. This should only stand to highlight the importance of developing a skeptical perspective of the industry.
I don’t get too caught up in the “counter-movement,” as you put it, for a number of reasons. I will say though, the collective work of people like Lyle, Alan and yourself really is appreciated. Highlighting the darker side of things – the truth if you will – not only acts as an educational filter, but also a barrier of sorts where at least some professionals will think twice before putting out substandard nonsense in a lame attempt to make a buck.
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